VanillaGaming PvE-Guild Progression

[Bremius]

You're missing most of the point of my post Pucchini.
But hi, currently officer and priest CL of Best in Slot, playing here since 2015 on ally side. Former officer/priest CL in 4 other ally guilds. Guess you dont make it over to ally side much and I dont make it over to horde side much.

In every guild I have been a part of I have pursued to kill every encounter without abusing any flaw in VG's scripting. I think I've done a fairly good job so far.

Apparently Chaos killing KT has inflated some egos on horde side, but that's alright. I'm sure an ally guild will step up to match you guys soon enough.

It's been known for quite some time. I'm not using this as an excuse to kill Gothik by these means. I'm a priest main so, as a high and mighty raider of Chaos, you must know that I shackle mobs on this fight. Why in the world would I want to kill myself and fail at my job in order to kill the boss? By no means have the guilds that I have been in have ever actively sought out and tried to use the bug in order to kill the boss. I have not been raid leader nor guild leader in any of these guilds. I have also never been disciplined by staff on VG before and have never intended to go out of my way to abuse bugs. Yes, I have gotten many clean kills on Gothik in the past and I intend to continue doing so.

You dont even have to do anything to make it work necessarily.

Yes, you have to explicitly do something very unusual to the circumstances given by the encounter and its environment.

For someone who has never seen the bug before and "pursued to kill every encounter without abusing any flaw in VG's scripting," you seem to act as if you have an awful lot of knowledge of how this works. Are you sure you haven't cheesed Gothik once or twice? And you are also wrong.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure your guild leader has been a part of these kills and I bet others in your guild have too, whether it be in Chaos or another guild.

(Prohpecy this... Perseverance that... Hector was GM... BiS too...)

"Mommy, Sarah got a pony and now I want a pony too!!!111"

This makes you sound like the asshole, just saying. My points about other guilds are 100% valid and on topic. If you are too dense to see that and respond in a childish fashion, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

The point is numerous other guilds have done it in the past, whether on purpose or on accident, and those guilds all had staff members in them. These guilds/guild leaders never received any sort of warnings. They have used the bug even before I knew that it was a bug and had staff members in the guilds. Which means staff members were 100% aware of this bug, abused it with their guilds, and never did anything about it. So why is it all of a sudden only on BiS's shoulders and is a huge problem NOW. No one else has ever received warnings or been informed this is considered "bannable abuse" in the past before.

If Spox and Hector both knew and used this then it can be reasonably inferred that EQ, GGC, Perse, Proph, CE, BiS, Everest, and probably horde guilds as well including DP have used it. Not because they weren't capable of doing the fight normally but simply because something went wrong on live side and the melee just continued the boss fight without them. You dont have to do anything out of the ordinary to trigger the bug. The live side just goes up to the platforms and stands there while Gothik runs over to the melee.

So once again, why in the world is this all of a sudden only on BiS's shoulders. Smh, makes no sense.

Maybe I'm biased because it's my guild under fire right now, but it seems awfully suspicious that the staff CLEARLY knew about this for quite some time and ONLY decides to say something to a guild that doesnt have a staff member in it.

So if you have a GM in your guild are you allowed to abuse bugs without repercussions?

Why cant the devs put their time to better use and just either FIX BUGS or RELEASE THE NEW CORE???

[Ancilla]

Nice to see that BiS Gothik kill brought some attention to this "grey area".

"This is not a 'grey area', server rules are clear!" you might say, yet again, as it was previously mentioned;

• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of previous GMs.
• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of the current Head GM.
• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of testers.

Just to clarify my point that noone is/was actually certain that this is/was considered as bannable offence or should be reported (and just because his name was already mentioned in this thread before), Ayag has been a part of a couple of those kills too (as well as a couple of other Chaos officers). The thing people seem to forget about VG is that the amount of people actively raiding here is not 5 guilds x40, it's mostly the same people raiding in multiple guilds.

Considering the fact that all those GMs and testers experienced this bug firsthand, I can only hope there is a bug report about this in the developer forums or in the bug tracker, but a quick search for "Gothik" does not show any reports for me.

Once again, I am glad that BiS Gothik kill brought some attention to this bug that everyone knows but does nothing about. What VG staff needs to do is to make it clear that everyone is treated the same way and GMs should be consistent in approaching these problems. When you see posts with "proud" and "not proud" Gothik kills where nobody says anything about the "not proud" parts, or someone getting banned without proof, it just creates more grey areas, shittalk, and drama. After all, Erga's post is the first official "no" to this after everyone, including other GMs and testers, going with "hmm, ok I guess.." for months.

[sveznajucastena]

lame bug

theres still a wall-jumpable place in that room (blizzlike) which can trivialize the encounter to the extent that u basically get free loot )))))))))))

[Almisael]

Apparently Chaos killing KT has inflated some egos on horde side, but that's alright.

haha

[Pucchini]

For someone who has never seen the bug before and "pursued to kill every encounter without abusing any flaw in VG's scripting," you seem to act as if you have an awful lot of knowledge of how this works. Are you sure you haven't cheesed Gothik once or twice? And you are also wrong.

First off yes, I got my knowledge from rumors only how to abuse this, sorry.That doesn't dismiss my point though which I'll rephrase below.
As far as I know the way how to play that bug, I understand that it's with clear intent of doing so (and the other way round in Chaos raids we're calling a wipe immediately if living side is wiping).

It's been known for quite some time. I'm not using this as an excuse to kill Gothik by these means.

This is the main problem I'm having with the bug abusing guilds. It's been known for a long time now and raids still abuse it.

(Prohpecy this... Perseverance that... Hector was GM... BiS too...)

"Mommy, Sarah got a pony and now I want a pony too!!!111"

This makes you sound like the asshole, just saying. My points about other guilds are 100% valid and on topic. If you are too dense to see that and respond in a childish fashion, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Huh, I'm just paraphrasing your paragraphs about other guilds. Of course your points may be valid and on topic but that doesn't change the complaint I'm trying to make clear:

You shall not bug abuse.

The point is numerous other guilds have done it in the past, whether on purpose or on accident, and those guilds all had staff members in them. These guilds/guild leaders never received any sort of warnings. They have used the bug even before I knew that it was a bug and had staff members in the guilds. Which means staff members were 100% aware of this bug, abused it with their guilds, and never did anything about it. So why is it all of a sudden only on BiS's shoulders and is a huge problem NOW. No one else has ever received warnings or been informed this is considered "bannable abuse" in the past before.

If Spox and Hector both knew and used this then it can be reasonably inferred that EQ, GGC, Perse, Proph, CE, BiS, Everest, and probably horde guilds as well including DP have used it. Not because they weren't capable of doing the fight normally but simply because something went wrong on live side and the melee just continued the boss fight without them. You dont have to do anything out of the ordinary to trigger the bug. The live side just goes up to the platforms and stands there while Gothik runs over to the melee.

(Not going to paraphrase again) Yes, yes, yes. Others did it in the past! But that doesn't allow you to abuse it. And it shouldn't justify you to do it by accident, too!
Regarding the whole "bug abuse raids got GMs in their roster" topic: Yup, some GMs seem to be crooked as fuck and I'm really pissed that even those don't abide by the rules.

So once again, why in the world is this all of a sudden only on BiS's shoulders. Smh, makes no sense.

I'm sorry if my post may have offended you as a BiS member/officer and I didn't intend to but right now you are the first to publicly state by yourself (!) that you "cheesed" it.

Why cant the devs put their time to better use and just either FIX BUGS or RELEASE THE NEW CORE???

Again, I'm with you on this.

[Brawnzy]

"This is not a 'grey area', server rules are clear!" you might say, yet again, as it was previously mentioned;

• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of previous GMs.
• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of the current Head GM.
• This was done by some guilds on VG in the presence of testers.

After all, Erga's post is the first official "no" to this after everyone, including other GMs and testers, going with "hmm, ok I guess.." for months.

What about all the guilds bugging gothik?

Not allowed. Guild Masters and Raid leaders beware, you might be held accountable.

I don't understand how a single post in a Guild Progression "clarifies" this as well. So Guild masters and raid leaders "might" be held accountable... Are we actually bugging gothik or is the mechanic running how it is suppose to and we just decide not to run and die to the adds on the other side... You can't even call this a bug the boss is running exactly how it's scripted to and the player doesn't have to "actively" pursue it.

We need to have a clear and concise post separate from this where a GM explicitly states what to do in this situation and what the punishments are. There are a few grey areas on this server that everyone just accepts is part of the server and no one says or does anything about it. (aoe stacking, attacking through walls, fearing in tunnel in wsg, etc...) and the gamemasters/admins won't fix it, won't explain that it's a bug or punish it reliably. None of these would be issues if the scripts worked properly but we can't expect that so we need clear and concise answers on bugs so we can jump through the hoops to avoid bugs and not land in these pesky "grey areas"

and as to Pucchini I want to clarify this for you... Brem isn't complaining that other guilds do this so why can't we. We are complaining that with all the evidence before us we didn't believe it to be abuse. We aren't actively causing the, "issue" and the fight just runs normally without breaking anything etc.. So we claim that we aren't abusing it. We're just doing what we've seen always done that have been condoned by past and current GameMasters. So please drop this feud it's needless drama that's throwing shade over the real issues.

So you can post the site's rules over and over but they need to clarify what is and isn't ok instead of using it themselves for years and years and finally saying vaguely in a single post ... no you might be held accountable

I know it seems like a lot of work but if you don't fix these *known* issues and your GM's do it then we believe that it's not abuse and then do it ourselves. If you fix the issues then god bless we don't have to deal with any of this. But as long as they are there you should clarify the specifics because there's been a lot of controversy over what is and isn't abuse that you can't leave to the opinion of what ever gm is available at that time.

[Ayag]

Well since my name is mentionned here I'll reply.
As a dislaimer this is not targetted to you, Bremius, or to CE, or to BiS, or anyone, it's mostly general. And I don't see how Chaos killing KT has anything to do in that, so let's keep it to the point ?

I do agree that it's not because something is bugged that you actively have to use the bug or the abuse. This is not an excuse to keep using it, you (general you, not targetting anyone) should be able to feel if it falls into the abuse or not. On this example, clearly bypassing the main mechanic of the fight should strike as everyone to be an abuse.

The fact that Gamemasters have witnessed and allowed or encouraged that is a disgrace, but once again it isn't an excuse to abuse it. This is just poor ethics from them, and if they can't see or understand why it's an abuse, maybe they don't deserve to be GMs in the first place.

The fact that guilds have been using it in the past isn't an excuse either. Cf. my first paragraph, new guilds, new leaders, they should be able to judge if it's an abuse or not.

So unless there are any adds still up on the dead side none spawn and you can't aggro the other adds through the gate.

You dont have to do anything out of the ordinary to trigger the bug. The live side just goes up to the platforms and stands there while Gothik runs over to the melee.

To my experience this is plain wrong. To do the bug, melees have to purposely go and hug the far wall of the undead side. If they do, the living mobs don't come. If they don't, when the gate opens the living mobs will come.

Our living side has wiped plenty of times on Gothik and the mobs always came. When that happens, we call for mob kiting, which usually doesn't go well since DK drops aggro, go for the healers and we wipe anyway.

On a side note, I'm pretty sure your guild leader has been a part of these kills and I bet others in your guild have too, whether it be in Chaos or another guild.

I have been in one of this kill, and I was a mere spectator of it, since I am not an Officer or Raid Leader of Everest. You can ask Unspoken, or any Everest member, when that happened I was not happy at all and I made that clear.
It never happened in Chaos.

So yeah, all of this isn't target to BiS or you and most of the point about the staff are valid. It should be clear what is tolerated or not, even though in this precise example, there is no debate as whether it's an abuse or not, since you're ignoring half the fight.

Cheers

[Oldngrumpy / Martimeg]

I think we can all agree that the Gothik encounter needs to be fixed. My question is how come timers and mechanics for the Four Horsemen encounter are able to be fixed BEFORE this encounter in which more guilds are likely to be able to attempt? Horde, Alliance, EU, or NA, we would all like to see this fight fixed so one does not have a "not proud," or "cheesed," or whatever other description you'd like to use for this fight. Can we get an answer from the GM's/Devs? No one who is posting in this thread for their guild wants to "abuse" this fight, we all just want to be able to progress through the content without any asterisks near our guild tag for Gothik kills.

[Biological / Gorgeuss]

I think we can all agree that the Gothik encounter needs to be fixed. My question is how come timers and mechanics for the Four Horsemen encounter are able to be fixed BEFORE this encounter in which more guilds are likely to be able to attempt? Horde, Alliance, EU, or NA, we would all like to see this fight fixed so one does not have a "not proud," or "cheesed," or whatever other description you'd like to use for this fight. Can we get an answer from the GM's/Devs? No one who is posting in this thread for their guild wants to "abuse" this fight, we all just want to be able to progress through the content without any asterisks near our guild tag for Gothik kills.

It's bugged and you need to intentionally work with the bug to bug out the fight to avoid mechanics, stop blaming the server. Everyone knows it's fucking bugged, whether you go around and intentionally abuse is your choice, noone's else.

[Strawie]

Ye right when u abuse gothik it's wrong and shit and gms get super mad, but when u are wearing a chestpiece in wsg (where there are only level 60 players) which states ON THE ITEM that it only works against enemies under lvl 50, gms dont give a single fuck.
Also #freemarm or prove that he abused, coz nobody believes you when u say he did.

[xymeria]

this discussing is going gud mons, going nowhere, nothing will be solved XD huehaua. How about don't exploit the bug and wait until 2091 so it gets fixed.

[Cohle]

What about all the guilds bugging gothik?

Not allowed. Guild Masters and Raid leaders beware, you might be held accountable.

Well which is it?  Are the rules rules that are upheld or subject to how you feel on that day?

[Ancilla]

when that happened I was not happy at all and I made that clear.

That's the thing: nobody is happy about it.

That being said, it is fun to watch all these "mere spectators" turning against each other on the ethics of the issue all of a sudden while there is still no news about a bug fix (I give up on the new core) or a clarification on the stance of the staff. I still don't even know if this is added to bug tracker yet by one of these gms or testers.

[Slaymayne]

Dumbest fucking arguments, act like adults. You can go back in this thread and see people such as unspoken for everest stating, "oh we killed gothik but it was a cheese kill, why dont gms fix that bug, kills a kill though". This shit and multiple other bugs have not been fixed and none of us can control them nobody was ever intentionally dping anything abusive. Everyone just go raid with your guild and enjoy vanilla again and fucking live your life otherwise. VG isnt a serious thing, stop fucking trying to prove whose the best on content thats been cleared for fucking 12 years. 
Cant believe grown ass people come on a video game forum to try and intentionally get people in shit, worry about your own life and get over the fact T3 and killing KT doesnt mean youre successful in life in any way

[Ayag]

nobody was ever intentionally dping anything abusive.

That's the thing: nobody is happy about it.

Wishful thinking. Some people just don't care about abusing, as long as the result is here.