Vanilla WoW - VanillaGaming

Class Discussion => Warrior => Topic started by: wopwop on February 09, 2013, 01:59:45 am

Title: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: wopwop on February 09, 2013, 01:59:45 am
Hit vs Crit... I've always had this thought: get ~18ish hits and from there go for crit. I've read it on a lot of different "how to play rogue" post and never really put a deeper thought into it. However, when I took some time and did some calculations I realized that Hit and Crit are both static dmg (ofc they scale with AP but not with each other) and since then I've changed my mind.. This is how I see Hit vs Crit (applied on warriors)

+1 hit gives you 1 more hit every 100 swings. 1 Hit does (wep_dmg + AP*speed/14) dmg (+/- spec, armor etc)
+1 crit gives you 1 more crit every 100 swings but removes 1 hit form the attack table (if you dont know how the attack table works check this link ( 1 Crit does 2 times the the dmg.
This means that 1 crit and 1 hit gives the exact same +dmg when it comes to autoattacks.

+1 hit gives you 1 more hit on your abilities every 100 attack.
+1 crit gives you 2,2 times (I assume every warrior got 2/2 in Impale ( normal dmg.

With this in mind we can now see that 1 hit is better than 1 crit till you have reached the ability cap (read more about the caps in this post ( But once you are above the ability cap the hit vs crit all comes down to the extra dmg you get from 1 out of 100 swings proc (crusader, weapon "chance on hit", HoJ proc, Maelstrom proc etc.) VS the extra dmg you get from 1/100 crited abilities you will be able to do during 100 auto attacks.. And according to my calculations you do more dmg  from 1 more crited ability than the procs you get from 1 more swing.

- "But doesn't warriors reg more rage from 1 hit compared to 1 crit?!" Since this server doesn't run the 1.12.x script(se this thread ( for rage reg) you do gain the 2 times the rage from a crit compared the hit, so no +1 hit wont give you more rage compared to +1 crit...

After the ability cap --> Crit>Hit. I've heard people saying 17-18 is the magic hit amount and beyond that Crit>hit but atm I can't find any reasons for that (yes HoJ makes Hit and Crit scale with each other but the dmg will still not make hit more worth than crit).

When it comes to gearing a warrior the choices aren't that many and deciding which items to need and not to need shouldn't be a huge problem. But just keep in mind that Hit>Crit till Ability cap and form there Crit>Hit, i.e dont gimp crit/ap for hit just because you are lower than ~17 hit... as long as you are above ability cap you should consider crit equal hit, or maybe even better.
Of course you need to grab more hit than ability cap to make sure u don't reach crit cap but with normal pve gearing crit cap shouldn't a problem..
And yes keep in mind 5*5=25 and 4*6=24, i.e dont gimp your AP for Crit and dont gimp your Crit for AP. But this should't either be a big problem with the vanilla itemization.


Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: Spot on February 09, 2013, 02:20:37 am
DAAAAMN DOG.  Thats some syrs shyt...xD

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: risne on February 09, 2013, 05:13:34 am
Kinda inaccurate, but may be true for this server cause some stuff is messed.

Overall it makes sense not to blindly take an item with 1% hit and nothing but spirit over something with more stats, just because the item has +hit.

Good work on the post though, some people take things to literally. Hopefully this helps some new warriors become dps monsters.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: wopwop on February 09, 2013, 01:02:49 pm
Risne can you precise "Kinda inaccurate"?

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: Swordy on February 09, 2013, 02:42:04 pm
Actually Janitor I've been thinking, my raid hit gear is 14% and I don't have any rage problem nor will my dps improve by changing anything on it, at least not with my gear. It just seems that that's the magical number.

The reason why this is might be because of horde's windfury. We basically always have a shamans in the melee group, it's almost impossible to have real rage problems, so everything might be a little different for us. I don't think the things you said apply to Horde melees in a raid as much as it applies to Alliance. With that said, I'll just shut up for now, I'm tired of the topic.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: risne on February 10, 2013, 03:12:46 pm
I meant the whole 1 in 100 hits thing... makes it look like a certainty when its not.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: NotArisias on August 01, 2014, 01:37:18 am
Bump. I'm making a warrior, Hit or crit?

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: M00rth on August 01, 2014, 01:51:21 am
I would say hit for PvE and crit for PvP.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: NotArisias on August 01, 2014, 01:54:47 am
That's basically the same for a rogue. I want more input 

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: Royalcoil on August 01, 2014, 01:55:41 am
just read the opening post

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: Aprilane on August 04, 2014, 07:28:57 pm
What wop said for the most part is true, but i think he is forgetting about the crit cap. For end geared/fully buffed warriors 15% hit (the ability cap) will only sustain about 45 % crit, so attaining anymore crit after that is basically a wasted stat. To increase the crit cap you have to increase your hit 

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: wopwop on August 04, 2014, 07:47:13 pm
For end geared/fully buffed warriors 15% hit (the ability cap)
You can read about VG's strange hitcaps here, but it wasnt 15% in retail.

You are correct tho, once u reach critcap hit becomes better. Not sure how easy it is to reach tho.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: Nimo on August 04, 2014, 08:46:56 pm
Nice post u got here.
Speaking from a rogue point of view (PvE), having more +hit/crit varies on spec aswell as the level of gear you have. I believe after reaching yellow hit cap (9%? yet with 5% from talents and +3% on ranged weapon with engi scope i found 8% to be sufficient for my yellow attacks not to miss when testing on level 63 mobs in BL) u shouldnt prioritize any of hit or crit while gimping other stats for the cause. Having more hit will extend your critcap, so in order to even be able to make more +crit useful u gotta stack hit first. I guess finding a balance between the 2 of those is indeed the key.

However it becomes a bit more situational. Taking into account all the stuff u mentioned in ur posts, +hit does some serious work when it comes to procs such as DMF card/crusaders/proc trinkets etc, aswell as poisons. Poisons not working properly and having more proc than they should would prioritize +hit just by themselves, especially for non horde rogues (assuming one is using instant, even tho it might cause deadly to stack faster in the begining if u were using it in raids, which for horde rogues single target tunneling seems to be more efficient).

Now back to the critcap and the fact that no amount of crit will be useful before making it useful with +hit. As almost bis rogue, i found critcap (with +24% hit atm) to be around 100%-glancing-miss-dodge+hit rating=54 to 55% depends on the sources you are using for those numbers. It is not unlikely to be able to reach this number in raids especially if combat dagger specced. I guess that in this situation u would like hit over crit to actually make crit count.
Assuming that not every raid u have songflower/ony/zg and other world buffs available it might be better to prioritize crit over hit until u use ur hit potential. I believe the key is to keep it balanced.
Two more situations come to mind.
1st being the 4set t3 bonus which scales with +crit more. Any amount of +crit, being within or out of critcap will cause ur yellow attacks to crit making u gain more energy.

2nd one is the usage of +2% crit stone on your offhand as horde rogue who is not benefiting from poisons as much as an ali rogue would. The question here is whether its useful to use this over poisons or not. I believe its totally situational and depends on how much armor a target has which again is totally situational. Speaking of raid single target raid bosses, with a properly organized guild u may even expect an armor value of 0 which would make all your physical damage attacks reach their full potential. However this is unlikely to see and usually bosses end up having from 0.9 to 0.5 armor factor, making non physical attacks do more damage. This specifically goes for trash mobs and fast paced fights with multiple targets for whom u cant really expect to have all the armor reduction that for example Patchwerk would have. In this situations +hit would probably overcome+crit. Also theres a 5point 100 energy bladeflurry pop on 3+ targets where u`d kill to get a crit with 5set t2.5 bonus and do 10k dmg in a single hit. again situational :)

Feel free to point out my mistakes, this is just an observation from what i learned about this issue on VG so far.

Damn it, i just found im in a warrior section of the forum...

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: neogen on July 09, 2015, 12:52:27 pm
Your numbers and theory only holds up for the single-roll-theory. If there actually are a 2-roll-system, your numbers and theories are faulty.

I've always done calculations presuming two-roll-theory, which means that every single +hit makes every +critt better, and I usually get MUCH better results from using the two-roll when I gear characters (meaning I prioritize +hit over +critt hard).

The Single-roll theory always seemed too simple, I could never get the math to work with my test-findings in-game.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: wopwop on July 09, 2015, 10:36:45 pm
I'm not sure if you are talking about abilities or white hits here.

Title: Re: Hit vs Crit, you want 17 hit right?
Post by: viile on July 10, 2015, 11:08:01 am
After 8%...

If this is in reference to warriors... there is no debate. Crit is your most valuable stat.

-30% increased attack speed
-120% + yellow damage

Lets break it down and pretend to do an encounter while only using white hits. A white crit will generate 30% more attacks over the course of a fight then a white hit does. So lets take two scenarios:

1 miss + 1 crit
1 hit + 1 hit

The miss and crit will do the same damage as the two hits, but it will also generate flurry (and deep wounds). Flurry effectively generates 30% more attacks for the purpose of this example. This means that a crit is 1.3 times more effective then two hits. (keep in mind that this example only mentions white attacks, yellow crits increase this benefit even further).

120% critical damage on your abilities is gnarly. during many encounters you will see warriors in or near the top of a damage meter throughout the fight but once the boss becomes sub 20% simply just blast to the top of the meter. Execute critical strikes will put you there.

If you ever choose hit over crit in a slot the item should have some very significant other stats. Only a few items really come to mind... DFT?

As our gear increases the benefit each type of stat gives to the other increases as well, but crit effectively always remains the most beneficial stat until the crit cap. However, with consumable stacking within reason now it should be very difficult to reach any crit cap. Assuming such a thing even exists on VG? A lot of the obvious warrior best in slot items also have hit on them, making very few difficult decisions.