Vanilla WoW - VanillaGaming

General Category => Rules / Regulations => Topic started by: Brawnzy on January 24, 2018, 11:28:38 pm



Title: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on January 24, 2018, 11:28:38 pm
I'm creating this because of the recent controversies revolving  Grey Areas that GM's haven't specified on what is or isn't abuse.

A Grey Area is what some people call a bug/abuse/exploit/glitch that is used commonly throughout VG and isn't clear on whether it is a bug/abuse/exploit/glitch because of lack of clarity on the issue.

This will hopefully shed some light to these Grey Areas  and help us avoid being punished for uncertainty.


Format
1) Desciption of Grey Area
2) How to avoid it
3) Is it punishable?
4) If yes punishment based on GM's response


Gothik the Harvester
1) When Live side dies the Dead side can continue the fight by just waiting for the boss to come off the balcony and just avoid pulling the rest of the live side adds. (which is really easy because their aggro range is tiny after the boss comes down off the balcony and the dead side can't pull them because of the gate until it opens)
2) When the gate opens you intentionally wipe your raid on the rest of the adds or just letting the boss kill everyone
3) Not sure but seems like yes
4) Vague response from Ergamemnon
What about all the guilds bugging gothik?

Not allowed. Guild Masters and Raid leaders beware, you might be held accountable.



Aoe stacking
1) Casters that have a repeatable channeled aoe like mage's blizzard or warlock's rain of fire can be repeatedly cast as long as you have mana and the effects will stack.
2) Wait to cast your next aoe until your first one runs out.
3) Yes it is punishable
4) Response from erga
Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.


Autoattacking through wall
1) If an enemy is within autoattack range but there is an obstacle blocking it you can still melee it without being able to use any abilities(i.e you can't use sinister strike or any abilities to improve your dmg just plain old auto attack dmg)
2) Just don't autoattack near walls
3) Yes it is punishable
4) Response from erga
Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.

Fearing in wsg tunnel
1) If you fear an enemy inside the wsg tunnels you have a high probability of making them run through the world and die or at a huge (not blizzlike) disadvantage of getting pathed to the ramp above the tunnel.
2) Don't fear while in wsg tunnel
3) Yes it is punishable
4) Response from erga
Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.


Sit spamming
1) As a pally force yourself to get crit to stack recklessness
2) Don't use the /sit or macro
3) Yes it is punishable
4) According to this thread https://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=20438.0
As of abusing the same bug again, you were banned for 5 days. Short term bans (1-5 days) are non-appealable.

Dodging Marks on Four Horsemen

1) You can LoS the marks on 4HM where normally you should be hit by the marks
2) Don't go to the LoS positions when fighting 4HM
3) Yes it's considered abusing a bug
4) Response from Erga
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.


If you have any more Grey Areas you'd like me to add to this list please let me know in the comments and I'll add them as soon as I have time. I know there are a lot more I just can't think of them off the top of my head.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: BaLkANxgOdX on January 24, 2018, 11:47:37 pm
better add being able to summon infinite rends lmao

aFter U proVE)


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: cthormann3 on January 25, 2018, 12:09:32 am
#freemarm


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Leise on January 25, 2018, 01:37:03 am
You put fearing in WSG tunnel on here, really? The rest are obvious intentional abuse of non blizzlike mechanics. Do we really need clarification that you shouldn't abuse bugs?
But come on you can't just tell people not fear just because you're in the tunnel, that's ridiculous.

#FreEmArM


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on January 25, 2018, 01:51:55 am
You put fearing in WSG tunnel on here, really? The rest are obvious intentional abuse of non blizzlike mechanics. Do we really need clarification that you shouldn't abuse bugs?
But come on you can't just tell people not fear just because you're in the tunnel, that's ridiculous.
#FreEmArM
Why not... it's absolutely not blizzlike and unfair advantage to those with fears... And is directly related to them not scripting it properly.... and if you know about it and still use it it's intentional... you see why these areas are grey now?


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Leise on January 25, 2018, 02:08:02 am
Being able to cast my aoe fear ability while in the tunnel isn't absolutely blizzlike? Oh man thanks for opening my eyes on that one.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Accurate on January 25, 2018, 02:13:26 am
Gothik the Harvester
1) When Live side dies the Dead side can continue the fight by just waiting for the boss to come off the balcony and just avoid pulling the rest of the live side adds. (which is really easy because their aggro range is tiny after the boss comes down off the balcony and the dead side can't pull them because of the gate until it opens.

You forgot to close that bracket. Can't even read the rest now :'(


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on January 25, 2018, 02:25:32 am
Woops Fixed >.<


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on January 25, 2018, 02:32:22 am
Being able to cast my aoe fear ability while in the tunnel isn't absolutely blizzlike? Oh man thanks for opening my eyes on that one.

I agree with you that it's absurd. However looking at it with objectivity it falls into all the same issues as the other grey areas...
1)It's not blizzlike
2)It's due to the way VG is scripted
3)It's commonly used all the time by a lot of VG users and staff alike without any clear regulation
4)It's doesn't take much, if not any, effort to do (users aren't actively abusing it, it more or less just happens)

Every grey area hit's at least 3 of those categories.


hence why it's debatable.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: archi on January 25, 2018, 02:33:16 am
Thank you Brawnzy


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Pepethekek on January 25, 2018, 02:34:19 am
Im afraid to log into vg now

someone plz hold me..


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Leise on January 25, 2018, 02:58:08 am
users aren't actively abusing it, it more or less just happens

Exactly, it just happens. Fear pathing sucks regardless of where you get feared, that doesn't make it abuse. It happens in a lot of other places aside from the tunnel but to enforce that you'd end up with fear being illegal on half of the map. The other examples on this list don't "more or less just happen" they are intentionally abused.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on January 25, 2018, 03:13:57 am
users aren't actively abusing it, it more or less just happens

Exactly, it just happens. Fear pathing sucks regardless of where you get feared, that doesn't make it abuse. It happens in a lot of other places aside from the tunnel but to enforce that you'd end up with fear being illegal on half of the map. The other examples on this list don't "more or less just happen" they are intentionally abused.
Autoattacking through walls can be something that just happens with no effort. It also can be used intentionally... but you can say the same for fearing in a tunnel in wsg. If you held on to your fear till you made it to the tunnel because you knew you'd have a better chance of shaking people off of you. Or a priest camping the tunnel for the sake of doing this. It's all really hard for each player to pinpoint what's wrong and whats right (because of years of these grey areas being used) and honestly shouldn't be too hard for the GM's to take a stance on these things for clarity's sake.

But like I said before, I agree with you on this one. I think it would be hard to enforce something like that anyway but it still belongs here to be discussed and put to rest.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Deetee on January 25, 2018, 03:23:31 am
1) Force yourself to be critted. Aka get reck stacked.
2) Dont use /sit or macro
3) Is it punishable? Yes
4) If yes punishment based on GM's response:
"As of abusing the same bug again, you were banned for 5 days. Short term bans (1-5 days) are non-appealable." https://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=20438.0 (https://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=20438.0)

Imho this is just a smart use of game mechanics, it is allowed on other servers and blizzard didn't have any problems with it.



Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Strawie on January 25, 2018, 04:18:25 am
we all know mages who intentinally blink on that one ramp spot to fall to tun and get away, i see brawnzys point


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Leise on January 25, 2018, 04:32:26 am
That's not something you can realistically enforce though. It happens on accident a lot, with warrior charge/intercept too, but there's no way you can actually prove they did it intentionally.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: topkek on January 25, 2018, 08:45:27 am
Silly question.


Why not prio fixing the problems instead of banning people? Seems counterproductive when you have 200 people online.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Cohle on January 25, 2018, 11:06:13 am
They don't really know how to fix them -- it's been nearly a decade


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on January 25, 2018, 11:29:04 am
They don't really know how to fix them -- it's been nearly a decade

Noone bothers*. Zeard could fix everything if he cared


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Pucchini on January 25, 2018, 11:42:54 am
There's always the opportunity to escalate things.

a) Stop playing
b) Move to another server collectively
c) Abuse the shit out of things to
   c1) totally break the server
   c2) and/or get everyone banned

a+b) will put VG back into stone age and therefore destroy all aspects that attract new players

c) requires a trustworthy agreement among the community tho


Btw, funny thing:
Zeard - the Boss Last Active:    November 24, 2017, 07:51:18 pm


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Kidam on January 25, 2018, 11:48:31 am

Btw, funny thing:
Zeard - the Boss Last Active:    November 24, 2017, 07:51:18 pm
Maybe he died during holidays from strong food nd drink


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Lokka on January 29, 2018, 05:11:10 pm
We also need a ruling regarding dogding marks on 4hm due to los issue.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Atreyyo on January 29, 2018, 06:11:56 pm
We also need a ruling regarding dogding marks on 4hm due to los issue.

WTB bugreport with proof that it isnt blizzlike.
Atleast 3 independent sources.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on January 29, 2018, 06:24:32 pm
We also need a ruling regarding dogding marks on 4hm due to los issue.

WTB bugreport with proof that it isnt blizzlike.
Atleast 3 independent sources.
make it 5 if erga remembers it being different in retail


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Subdash on February 02, 2018, 01:07:36 am
We also need a ruling regarding dogding marks on 4hm due to los issue.

WTB bugreport with proof that it isnt blizzlike.
Atleast 3 independent sources.
make it 5 if erga remembers it being different in retail

lol pretty sure erga didn't even see naxx if he did play retail.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Cohle on February 02, 2018, 04:30:38 pm
4 Horsemen marks in retail applied regardless of LoS.   ( this i remember )

Only evidence i can find is original tactics such as https://wow.gamepedia.com/Four_Horsemen_(original)


Perhaps for the first time in VG's history we can make it fair:   Find 3 sources supporting LoS, or not LoS.


As always,  broken until proven otherwise


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Ergamemnon on February 02, 2018, 04:42:08 pm
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on February 02, 2018, 05:29:14 pm
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.
when new core


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Buexx on February 02, 2018, 06:29:43 pm
Autoattacking through wall
1) If an enemy is within autoattack range but there is an obstacle blocking it you can still melee it without being able to use any abilities(i.e you can't use sinister strike or any abilities to improve your dmg just plain old auto attack dmg)
2) Just don't autoattack near walls
3) not sure yet: never heard of anyone being warned but isn't blizzlike afaik
4) no response yet

Do you have any info on when this has been changed, or is there a bug report regarding it (couldn't find any when searching quickly)?
Thanks to arena there is some sources that one could hit through LOS blocking obstacles/world in TBC:
http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23955-tauren-melee-range/ (http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/23955-tauren-melee-range/)
Answer #4; #9; #10; ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMRzrCOo2w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMRzrCOo2w)

I could not find any proof for this from vanilla times though...


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: HoneyCocaine on February 02, 2018, 07:34:33 pm
Also, sort out the warlock making shards on totems.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Lokka on February 02, 2018, 09:57:51 pm
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.
when new core

If new core


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Liket on February 02, 2018, 10:36:16 pm
What you can dodge marks?


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Lokka on February 02, 2018, 10:43:21 pm
Yus


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Homura on February 02, 2018, 11:02:12 pm
They don't really know how to fix them -- it's been nearly a decade

Noone bothers*. Zeard could fix everything if he cared
I'm pretty sure this "Zeard" person is either dead or the person that was "Zeard" no longer is "Zeard".


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Brawnzy on February 02, 2018, 11:19:54 pm
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.

So everything on this list is punishable guys so don't do any of it. Including fearing in tunnel apparently. No stacking aoe no hitting through walls nothing until I add another that isn't stated yet. No matter how much it was used by past staff or players it's not allowed and there is our answer.


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on February 03, 2018, 12:46:55 am
In regards of the 4hm marks: They ignored los when 4hm went live. Its still defined like that in the db, though the script bugged out in regard of los, when Z had to touch things later on.

Related to the aspects listed in the main post: I consider all of those issues as bugs. If anyone uses these bugs to gain ingame advantages, thats called abuse and falls under the ordinary bug abuse rules.

So everything on this list is punishable guys so don't do any of it. Including fearing in tunnel apparently. No stacking aoe no hitting through walls nothing until I add another that isn't stated yet. No matter how much it was used by past staff or players it's not allowed and there is our answer.
good luck enforcing that shit;)


Title: Re: Grey Areas
Post by: Ergamemnon on February 03, 2018, 08:44:18 am
/thread



I'm pretty sure this "Zeard" person is either dead or the person that was "Zeard" no longer is "Zeard".


Oh, no worries mate.