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Community => General Chat => Topic started by: wopwop on August 01, 2014, 03:32:35 am



Title: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: wopwop on August 01, 2014, 03:32:35 am
The hit and weaponskill are far away from beeing blizzlike atm. After some testing I've been able to come to the following conclusions:

White hits:
Hitcap (no + wep skill) = 28%
Hitcap (5+ wep skill) = 26 %
Hitcap (10+ wep skill) = 25%
the exact hitcap might be lower but those are the numbers you need to reach for 0 misses

Furthermore the glancing blow seems to follow wowwiki's version (which is wrong!). Today you are capped at 310 wep skill (correct)  but it only removes 95% of the glancing penalty, not 100%.

Yellow hits:
When it comes to yellows/styles/abilities or w/e u want to call them it seems you reach the cap at:
9 with 300 wep skill
6 with 305 wep skill
6 with 310 wep skill

!OBS I only did the ability tests with 500 hits, i.e I'm not 100% sure. But I doubt anyone will join a raid with less than 9 hit..

I haven't tested 2h yet but I doubt it is 5,6 as it should be, base on the heavily broken dual wield mechanics.

Two-roll theory for melee special attacks:
From what I can see, the server is using this. But the numbers seems wrong when it comes to block on targets above your lvl.
(http://i.imgur.com/BPreKh1.png)
The block, if I'm not mistaken, should be 5,6% (with 300 weapon skill) and not 100% against lvl 63.  
I also noticed something weird, the combat log shows -31 dmg but is only reduced by 18 and the correct value for vanilla should be around 46 ( could be different from different boss "classes" but I'm pretty sure everyone had around the same block value, higher than 18 at least. )



The dead zone: Needs testing
In vanilla, and maybe in some other expansions, there was something called the Dead zone. This zone is an area around the target where it is able to parry/block your attacks even though you are standing behind it (parried backstabs for example). This zone was really small but made all the melees to not stand in it's red circle while dpsing. Whether this is implemented on VG is unclear and should probably be tested by tester.
(http://i.imgur.com/LRZcgwZ.png)
I know, it's really easy to see that it says "backstab" there.

Druids glancing blow:
Druids are today affected by the caster glancing blow. This means a druid in kitten form with 75 average dmg sometimes hit for 1-3dmg (glancing). Whether druids should have the caster glancing blow in forms is unclear, but:
- Paladins got the melee glancing both on VG and in retail.
- If Shamans or druids had the caster glancing blow in vanilla I'd probably be able to find some threads, either qqing ones or just open discussions, about this subject. Which I don't.

I don't have any proof that supports this but with simple logic I'd say Druids should't do 1 dmg hits -> They shouldn't have caster glancing blow and this should, once a druid bothered to report it, be set to High priority.
  


OT1: I also noticed that the Biznick's scope (http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18283) works for melee.

OT2: Players/mobs running away from you during a cast. As you might have noticed spells are getting interrupted way to easy when players run away, out of range. In vanilla you were able to land spells you started to cast even though players ran further than max range. This is something that's really noticeable in PVP and should be reported/fixed.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on March 25, 2016, 05:29:14 pm
bump


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: wopwop on May 30, 2016, 01:25:54 pm
Updated the post with some new things.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Gnoem on May 30, 2016, 01:38:08 pm
Nice


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Lanori on May 30, 2016, 03:46:15 pm
Thanks for adding that Jani (regarding druids)... its pretty huge for pve feral druids.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on May 30, 2016, 05:30:41 pm
Was meaning to report druid glancings a long time ago but i didnt't find any information on the web about it


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Necrolic on May 30, 2016, 08:34:19 pm
Melees are also problem because server itself has also lag. They look more far away from you but they actually closer to you which is sad.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Ayag on May 31, 2016, 11:32:49 am
Shouldn't hitcap be almost not affected by weapon skill since +1 skill gives 0.04 hit ?
(+15 weapon skill hence gives 0.6 hit so you shouldn't be able to reduce the hitcap by 1% unless it's xx,59%)

Also regarding glancing, do you have a source to say that +10 weapon skill is the cap ?
Glancing vs bosses should be 40% of the white hits reducing their damage by 30%, right ?

There seems to be a few formulas around but I can't really judge if they are "true" or not.
Some say +1wp reduces glancing penalty by 3% (so +10 would be cap), other say that it's not linear and you still gain a bit more damage after +10wp.

I'll look out for the sources and post em.








Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: wopwop on July 01, 2016, 12:40:39 pm

Druids glancing blow:
Druids are today affected by the caster glancing blow. This means a druid in kitten form with 75 average dmg sometimes hit for 1-3dmg (glancing). Whether druids should have the caster glancing blow in forms is unclear, but:
- Paladins got the melee glancing both on VG and in retail.
- If Shamans or druids had the caster glancing blow in vanilla I'd probably be able to find some threads, either qqing ones or just open discussions, about this subject. Which I don't.
Psst, druids report this


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on July 01, 2016, 02:20:30 pm

Druids glancing blow:
Druids are today affected by the caster glancing blow. This means a druid in kitten form with 75 average dmg sometimes hit for 1-3dmg (glancing). Whether druids should have the caster glancing blow in forms is unclear, but:
- Paladins got the melee glancing both on VG and in retail.
- If Shamans or druids had the caster glancing blow in vanilla I'd probably be able to find some threads, either qqing ones or just open discussions, about this subject. Which I don't.
Psst, druids report this
http://vanillagaming.org/forum/index.php?topic=19841.0


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: ssjlouie on July 01, 2016, 02:39:40 pm
glancing is 70% and 5 weapon skill gives 15% extra so in turn +10 weapon skill makes for the 100% of glancing damage.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Necrolic on July 01, 2016, 03:49:51 pm
These things have to be first prio yea. Class bugs, pathfinding, pet system and of course mechanics such as melee and casting range. Yea developers instead of focusing on low level quests and such, focus here pls.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Inaccurate on July 01, 2016, 03:56:30 pm
These things have to be first prio yea. Class bugs, pathfinding, pet system and of course mechanics such as melee and casting range. Yea developers instead of focusing on low level quests and such, focus here pls.

These are all things that can only be fixed by core developers, whereas low level quests and such are fixed by the database devs. Zeard is this server's only core developer and he's not active at the moment. You'll have to be patient.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Biological / Gorgeuss on July 01, 2016, 04:13:40 pm
These things have to be first prio yea. Class bugs, pathfinding, pet system and of course mechanics such as melee and casting range. Yea developers instead of focusing on low level quests and such, focus here pls.

These are all things that can only be fixed by core developers, whereas low level quests and such are fixed by the database devs. Zeard is this server's only core developer and he's not active at the moment. You'll have to be patient.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Ayag on July 01, 2016, 04:37:27 pm
glancing is 70% and 5 weapon skill gives 15% extra so in turn +10 weapon skill makes for the 100% of glancing damage.

When I past looked into Glancings, I stumbled upon two formulas that were not agreeing. One was saying that it is indeed +3% damage from weapon skill (as you are saying) and another one that said that the damage increased was not linear.

The damage increase would not be capped at 310 wep skill, but any points after 310 was not increasing damage significantly to make it a good choice of itemization.

Anyway I can't seem to find the source for my second claim and I guess it doesn't matter, as long as we know how it's working here. Are we sure it's +3%damage per weapon skill (I mean, has someone done proper testing etc?).

Also hitcap decreases with weapon skill ?
28% no weapon skill / 26% +5 weapon skill / 25% +10 weapon skill (Dual Wield)
9% no weapon skill / 6% +5 weaponskill / 6% +5weapon skill (1H)
From my understand, +1 weapon skill gives 0,04% hit&crit aswell as -0,04% chance to be parried/dodge but I fail to see how it lowers the hitcap by 3% for the first 5 weaponskill.

Is that correct and is there any reliable sources ?

Thanks in advance for your enlightment.
Cheers


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Necrolic on July 01, 2016, 06:47:58 pm
Such sad then we have only 1 core dev.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Mulva on July 01, 2016, 08:03:46 pm
glancing is 70% and 5 weapon skill gives 15% extra so in turn +10 weapon skill makes for the 100% of glancing damage.

When I past looked into Glancings, I stumbled upon two formulas that were not agreeing. One was saying that it is indeed +3% damage from weapon skill (as you are saying) and another one that said that the damage increased was not linear.

The damage increase would not be capped at 310 wep skill, but any points after 310 was not increasing damage significantly to make it a good choice of itemization.

Anyway I can't seem to find the source for my second claim and I guess it doesn't matter, as long as we know how it's working here. Are we sure it's +3%damage per weapon skill (I mean, has someone done proper testing etc?).

Also hitcap decreases with weapon skill ?
28% no weapon skill / 26% +5 weapon skill / 25% +10 weapon skill (Dual Wield)
9% no weapon skill / 6% +5 weaponskill / 6% +5weapon skill (1H)
From my understand, +1 weapon skill gives 0,04% hit&crit aswell as -0,04% chance to be parried/dodge but I fail to see how it lowers the hitcap by 3% for the first 5 weaponskill.

Is that correct and is there any reliable sources ?

Thanks in advance for your enlightment.
Cheers

There are supposed to be two different formulae used for determining your hit cap. One where the difference between your target's defense and your weapon skill is less than or equal to 10, and one where the difference is greater than 10.

Less than 10 or equal:
5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
dual-wielding: 24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

Greater than 10:
7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%
dual-wielding: 26% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Here (http://pastebin.com/wws7FZyS) is a pastebin that goes pretty in-depth about glances.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: wopwop on July 01, 2016, 08:12:57 pm
Oh fun seeing dhorn being mentioned here :)
Mulva have you got any source for the less/greater than 10 wep skill ?


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Mulva on July 01, 2016, 11:37:58 pm
Oh fun seeing dhorn being mentioned here :)
Mulva have you got any source for the less/greater than 10 wep skill ?


Just the vanilla wiki (http://vanilla-wow.wikia.com/wiki/Hit) hit page at the moment. Wish I had more to offer but it seems the EJ forums are not coming back.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Ayag on July 03, 2016, 01:00:53 pm
There are supposed to be two different formulae used for determining your hit cap. One where the difference between your target's defense and your weapon skill is less than or equal to 10, and one where the difference is greater than 10.

Less than 10 or equal:
5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
dual-wielding: 24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

Greater than 10:
7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%
dual-wielding: 26% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Here (http://pastebin.com/wws7FZyS) is a pastebin that goes pretty in-depth about glances.

So that would be rounded to 6% hitcap & 25% hitcap for 305-315 weaponskill and 9% & 28% for 300-304 weapon skill. Very interesting. Any clue if it works the same for hunters by any chance ?

Gonna look at the pastebin when I have more time, thanks a lot.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Mulva on July 03, 2016, 09:56:53 pm
There are supposed to be two different formulae used for determining your hit cap. One where the difference between your target's defense and your weapon skill is less than or equal to 10, and one where the difference is greater than 10.

Less than 10 or equal:
5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
dual-wielding: 24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

Greater than 10:
7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%
dual-wielding: 26% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Here (http://pastebin.com/wws7FZyS) is a pastebin that goes pretty in-depth about glances.

So that would be rounded to 6% hitcap & 25% hitcap for 305-315 weaponskill and 9% & 28% for 300-304 weapon skill. Very interesting. Any clue if it works the same for hunters by any chance ?

Gonna look at the pastebin when I have more time, thanks a lot.

Afaik it should be the same for hunters. The formula is used for both weapon in the mainhand + non-weapon offhand and two-handers. Kinda highlights how unfortunate the itemization on Eye of Nerub is.


Title: Re: current state of VG's melee mechanics
Post by: Ayag on July 04, 2016, 01:19:56 pm
Afaik it should be the same for hunters. The formula is used for both weapon in the mainhand + non-weapon offhand and two-handers. Kinda highlights how unfortunate the itemization on Eye of Nerub is.

Well, that's funny because I always wondered why they put +weapon skill on ranged weapons for hunters if it was only the +0.04crit, +0.04hit and considering they don't benefit from the glancing aspect of weapon skill.

That would be close to being useless for hunters as Eye of Nerub would give 0.12 crit and 0.12hit, which is very minor and doesn't affect any hitcap in a way you could drop 1hit from gear (from 9 to 8 ). Same for hunters/dwarves racial too.

But if it's working as you suggest, then it makes more sense. The two BiS weapons for hunters are crossbows and giving +5 would be too huge as you could drop 3%hit. But with +4, you drop the hitcap from 9% to 7,4%, rounded up to 8, which allows for some choices in itemization.

Then it seems logical.